Mirage F1 ?

[GAE_Castor]

Miren como siguen tirando humo...

http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2013/07/chengdu-fc-1-xiaolong-argentinas-silver-lining/

CAC FC-1 Xiaolong: Argentina?s silver lining?

Posted on July 15, 2013 by Ace Rimmer in Analysis and Proposal with 166 Comments



It?s not a secret by any means, but Argentina and China have been getting their collective heads together to discuss licence production of the single seat aircraft, and thus re-invigorate the Argentine Air Force (Fuerza Aérea Argentina ? FAA) with a more contemporary jet fighter.


FC-1 Xiaolong (Image Credit Flickr Proplinerman)

The FC-1 Xiaolong, is a collaborative project between China and Pakistan, and is also known as the JF-17 Thunder.  It?s a modern, single-seat multi-role aircraft, sporting modern radar, Fly-By-Wire flight controls, advanced avionics and weapons.  Given the different requirements of the respective air arms of China and Pakistan, the aircraft vary avionic and weapons fits to satisfy these demands.  Unsurprisingly, the Chinese aircraft rely on locally sourced equipment, whereas Pakistan tends to favour Western companies.


JF-17 Thunder ? PAF

The Argentine Air Force like many other nations, is suffering the effects of the global economic recession and is cash strapped.  The current legacy types, namely Mirage III/V are suffering from spares and maintenance issues, with the upgraded  A-4AR Fightinghawk carrying the bulk of Argentina?s air defence duties.  This is no big deal for the Argentines as the A-4 is still a capable aircraft with relatively modern avionic systems (mainly from the F-16), however as a fighter it lacks supersonic capability and is limited in numbers.

http://www.youtube.com/v/fd7iHGWsV7s

One of the main questions to ask concerning the procurement of the FC-1 is why?  China has never really been a major supplier of arms to Argentina, traditionally it has been the United States, France and Israel.  Since the Falklands Conflict Argentina has had some difficulty in sourcing advanced jet-fighters.  The A-4AR Fightinghawk is merely an upgraded A-4M Skyhawk purchased second-hand from the United States, which will eventually succumb to old age and fatigue.  The underlying reasons for Argentina?s predicament seems to be cost, as the F-16 or Mirage 2000 would appear ideal candidates, as both the United States and France have put forward proposals for their respective purchases.

So, if cost seems to be an issue for relatively standard aircraft like the F-16 and Mirage 2000, what is the FC-1 price tag?  Depending on who you believe and what website you?re visiting, the costs seem to be in the $20 ? 25 million bracket, which if true is not a price to be sniffed at.  However, this is for an aircraft manufactured in China, using their labour and locally manufactured systems.  Given that the aircraft has yet to make a foreign sale, the Chinese would undoubtedly offer very acceptable terms to stimulate additional interest; as well as expanding China?s South American influence.


Image Credit: Flickr; Nikon Nutter

The Argentines on the other hand are looking towards local manufacture, which means utilising their local labour, which will undoubtedly increase the manufacturing costs compared to China.  Also, one problem associated with Chinese supplied combat aircraft is the less than ideal after sales service, which licence production would (hopefully?) negate.  In addition to this, they will need a fairly substantial production run to justify this cost and take full advantage of the economies of scale.  Given the predominant use of Western weapons by the Argentines, the ability to carry both Western and Chinese sourced items would give the FAA a distinct advantage; allowing them to use up their existing stocks or purchase second hand items on the international market.

The ability to produce quality aircraft is not new to Argentina, albeit with foreign assistance.  Also, the Fabrica Argentina de Aviones, formerly Fabrica Militar de Aviones, is a respected company, having worked with both Dornier and Lockheed-Martin.  As for products, the IA-63 Pampa jet trainer and the IA-58 Pucara COIN aircraft are very good aircraft in their own right, so production of the FC-1 shouldn?t pose too many problems in this respect.  It may also lead to the surprising situation of Argentine aircraft being of superior quality to their Chinese counterparts!

Although China is the lead design authority, they may allow licensed foreign sales to other South American countries furthering Chinas influence and creating a degree of commonality amongst neighbouring countries.  The major sticking point at the moment appears to focus around technology transfer.  The irony being that given China?s propensity to flout international copyright laws and engage in the theft of designs through cyber attacks, they probably got their technology surreptitiously from another country!

What does this mean for the UK?

At the moment very little as talks are still ongoing, and setting up a production line is not something that can be done overnight.  As a comparison, production of the F-16A in the Netherlands was announced in June 1975 with the first production aircraft being delivered to the Netherlands Air Force in June 1979.  So, if all goes sweet first deliveries could arrive with the FAA in the 2018/19 time frame depending on how current negotiations go.  Although full operational capability with sufficient numbers produced to equip full squadrons will take another couple of years at least.  This interestingly will more or less coincide with the deployment of the F-35B on carriers by the UK (fingers crossed!).

As for the defence of the Falkland Islands this will give the RAF some cause for concern, depending on the weapons fit of the FAA?s airfcraft.  The Pakistan Air Force is looking for an AESA to fit its JF-17?s, so there?s no reason to think why Argentina won?t go down this path.  With regards to combat radius, Wikipedia gives the FC-1?s at 840 miles.  This is not exactly a huge advance on the motley collection of Mirage III?s/V?s and A-4?s that the FAA currently owns, although it is an improvement.  To expand their capability Argentina will also have to re-invest in its in-flight refuelling capability and pull its finger out with regards to supplying parts and essential maintenance to its dilapidated C-130 Hercules fleet.  In addition to this, the FAA will need to expand its IA-63 Pampa jet trainer fleet, albeit with avionic upgrades to utilise it as a true Lead In Fighter Trainer (LIFT) like the BAE Hawk T.2.  Otherwise this lack of investment will reflect on the capability of the FC-1 fleet in a similar manner to the current one.

UK forces could counter this by deploying additional radar assets to give greater coverage and early warning, while additional Typhoons would counter any mass air attack.  So the potential for an increase in the costs of defending the FI?s would appear to increase after 2020 as the associated threat increases.

On the whole, it would appear that the Chengdu FC-1 Xiaolong would be a good investment for Argentina, although on the face of it a Mirage 2000 purchase would appear to be cheaper and become operational quicker due to air and ground crews familiarity with the Mirage III/V.  Alternatively, if non-traditional suppliers were to be used they could down the Mig-35 or Su-30 derivative route from Russia, which would give it a degree of commonality with other South American countries.  The trend for Argentina going outside of traditional suppliers seems have started with the purchase of two Mi-17 Hips in 2010, again on the grounds of cost.

However, with the FC-1 licensed production gives a greater degree of security with regards to aircraft serviceability following Argentina?s recent history of international sanctions and arms embargoes.  It also would become a thorn in the side of the UK as it would increase the threat posed to the Falkland Islands, something that can only bring a smile to the face of the average Argentine politician.  The only thing standing in Argentina?s way is whether they can afford the investment to make their aspirations come to fruition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAC/PAC_JF-17_Thunder

[GAE_Baco]

NAh bolu! son mejores que Tom Clancy!!! jajajaja

[GAE_Popeye]

Anda circulando un supuesto extracto del proyecto de presupuesto 2014 que incluye a los F1. La verdad no tengo muchas ganas de revolver las páginas oficiales pero me acuerdo que una vez pasó lo mismo con los F-5 chilenos.

[GAE_Yanito]

a cuanto estan los F1 en Mercadolibre.com ?

[GAE_Charrua]

Por la compra de un PA11 te regalan dos.

[GAE_Popeye]

160 millones de dólares x 8 unidades y 7 para repuestos, dicen.

[GAE_Castor]

Parece que tendré que tragarme mis palabras...(aunque no creo que salga)

http://www.defensa.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=10118:el-ministerio-de-defensa-argentino-solicita-fondos-para-adquirir-los-mirage-f-1-del-ejercito-del-aire-espanol&catid=54:espana&Itemid=162

El Ministerio de Defensa argentino solicita fondos para adquirir los Mirage F-1 del Ejército del Aire español

(defensa.com) El Ministerio de Defensa argentino ha solicitado formalmente la suma de 1.217.264.000 pesos, equivalente a unos 160 millones de euros, para la adquisición de aviones Mirage F-1 ex Ejército del Aire español y que salieron de servicio meses atrás, después de décadas de operación. La perentoria necesidad de sustituir a los veteranos Mirage III de la Fuerza Aérea Argentina, completamente superados tecnológicamente y con miles de horas, más la posibilidad del cierre de la base que los alberga, la VI Brigada Aérea de Tandil,  unido todo ello  a que España  tenía en venta  sus aviones junto con todos los elementos de apoyo, léase motores, herramental, piezas de repuesto, etc. permiten concretar esta negociación, al punto que la semana próxima se desplazarían miembros del Ministerio de Defensa español para trabajar en la elaboración de los contratos pertinentes con la Fuerza Aérea y el Ministerio de Defensa argentino.

A pesar de algunos intentos desde Israel ofreciendo el Kfir en lugar de los cazas españoles,  el 14 de septiembre entraba en el  Congreso Nacional argentino el borrador de presupuesto 2014 para su estudio y posterior aprobación,  figurando en él una partida económica para la compra de los Mirage F-1 a España. Todavía no se ha informado de cuantos aparatos y equipamiento integran el contrato y demás pormenores, solo fue anunciado el pedido de una partida presupuestaria a tal efecto. Este monto figura ya en el próximo presupuesto de defensa para el año 2014,  como partida dineraria solicitada oficialmente.
Tras más de 35 años de servicio en el Ejército del Aire, el Mirage F-1  terminaba su vida operativa el pasado mes de junio. El Ministerio de Defensa está tratando de vender a terceros los ocho aparatos que aún prestaban servicio en el  Ala 14, última unidad en la que ha volado este cazabombardero que fue durante muchos años un pilar básico en la defensa del espacio aéreo de soberanía española,  sustituido ahora por los Eurofighter. Además de a Argentina, España habría hecho tentativas para colocar los aviones con otros dos países: Ecuador y Egipto, antes de que estallara la actual crisis que vive este último país. Tal como informábamos el pasado mes de junio, el lote total a la venta lo compondrían los ocho aparatos recién retirados del servicio en el Ejército del Aire español más otros cuatro que serían empleados para obtener repuestos. El casi centenar de unidades existentes a lo largo de su historia operativa en el Ejército del Aire ha volado en las Alas 11 de Manises (Valencia), 14 en Albacete y 46 en Gando (Gran Canaria).

[GAE_Ceteu]

Lo que me preocupa son dos cosas: Primero que tienen una gran tasa de accidentes y lo segundo, hay que ver con qué equipamiento te lo venden.

Por lo que sé, desde ya vienen sin los pods Barax ni los de Intel, los Syrel, que se los están vendiendo a Francia.

Si bien se perdería la capacidad supersónica, creo que con esa plata pondría en condiciones los A-4AR que tengo almacenados y que se hacen viejos sin uso y con eso reequiparía la VI.

Y me pondría en serio a buscar el reemplazo del SDA supersónico, por algo que podramos operar en el tiempo en forma adecuada y con mucho mayores capacidades de un caza que como mucho, es de tercera generación con capacidades limitadas.

[GAE_Castor]

Por mas equipo que le pongan, no veo cual es la ganancia de traer aviones de 35 años para reemplazar unos de 40.....

[GAE_Ceteu]

Por eso digo, prefiero poner en marcha los AR que están hangarados, así los pilotos pueden sumar horas de vuelo y me voy directo a negociar un SDA adecuado.

Porque seamos realistas, vienen estos aviones para que lo pilotos no se queden sin volar y así no cerrar la VI.

Como SDA, no asustamos a nadie y son aviones que tienen muy pocas horas de vuelo remanentes y con alto costo de mantención.

[GAE_Baco]

Coincido, comprar los F1 españoles es el peor negocio de la historia...
Mejor comprarle AMX a brasil. O reflotras los AR que son máquinaas con papacidades más que suficientes para nosotros...

Ahora que triste no, la primer nación sudamericana con jets es la única sin capacidad Supersónica... que mal loco, que mal...

[GAE_Balker]

No esperen nada bueno de esta gestión a nivel defensa...Al menos así no se van a desilucionar...

[GAE_Aguará]

Coincido, comprar los F1 españoles es el peor negocio de la historia...
Mejor comprarle AMX a brasil. O reflotras los AR que son máquinaas con papacidades más que suficientes para nosotros...

Ahora que triste no, la primer nación sudamericana con jets es la única sin capacidad Supersónica... que mal loco, que mal...

Nosotros nomás los votamos!!
Eso es lo mejor de todo... 2grin 2grin 2grin

[GAE_Charrua]

Yo Uruguayo jeje

[GAE_Baco]

hmmm. no se si te conviene Charru! mira las declaraciones del pepe! ahora las malvinas son uruguayas! jajaja, ya se a donde apunta la compra de los Mirage! a disuadirlso a ustedes jajajajaja